Unsmothered Brother
By Russell Bartholomee


Tom (singing): I fell into a vat of chocolate.  I fell into a vat of chocolate...

Dick (singing): What’d you do when you fell in the chocolate?

Both: La dee doo dum la dee doo dum day...




Tom (singing): I yelled ‘fire’ when I fell into the chocolate...

Dick (annoyed, singing): Why’d you yell ‘fire’ when you fell into the chocolate?

Tom: I yelled ‘fire’ cause no one would help me if I yelled ‘Chocolate!’

Both: La dee doo dum la dee doo dum day.


Tom and Dick Smothers, from ‘Chocolate,’ on The Two Sides of the Smothers Brothers LP.[i]


Such was a typical routine from the Smothers Brothers’ act in the early 1960s.  The lanky, crew-cut, fresh-faced siblings--Tommy, the older, ‘dumber’ brother and Dicky the annoyed straight-man--would launch into a well-known folk song, only to have Tommy ruin it, much to the delight of the audience and the consternation of Dick.  Song after song in the brothers’ set would come to an untimely demise by the (sometimes innocent, sometimes gleefully naughty) antics of Tom.  Every show would come to a climactic war of words between the brothers, with Dick pointing out all of Tom’s flaws, shouting him down until Tommy would burst forth with, ‘Oh yeah? Well, Mom always liked you best!’ bringing down the house down. 

It seems a wonder that such an innocuous act could be considered threatening to anyone.  And yet by 1969, the brothers had earned a reputation as troublemakers, ruffling so many feathers at CBS that, in spite of great ratings for the innovative variety show (the groundbreaking Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, which aired from 1967 - 1969), the network chose to fire the brothers, effectively ending the Smothers Brothers’ television careers.  The story of how the brothers managed, by decade’s end, to transform from clean-cut, nice young men to “radical agitators” and poster boys for free speech is one of the most fascinating in the history of popular culture.

Because of their wide appeal, CBS had taken a chance on the brothers, and in 1967 The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour was an instant hit. Within two months, it had knocked the once-proud Bonanza from the top spot in its time slot.  Initial reviews were quite enthusiastic, and for a time, everyone seemed to be ecstatic with the arrangement.  Indeed, it seemed that the brothers had accomplished what very few television entertainers had been able to achieve before: they were a hit with the kids and the grownups at the same time, partly due to the wide variety of guests.  On any given Sunday, you might see Kate Smith on the same episode as The Who, George Burns and Ravi Shankar.  The assortment of guest stars was so varied as to make Ed Sullivan’s shows look positively homogenized by comparison.  Even the format of the show was attractive to several segments of the audience.  It had elements of the typical TV variety show, but the way the Smothers Brothers went after the youth audience was new and innovative. The opening segment on the show might well be a blistering set by The Who.  In fact, it was on the Comedy Hour, in a literally explosive performance of the Who classic ‘My Generation,’ that Pete Townshend’s eardrum ruptured, leaving his hearing permanently impaired.  By appealing to young and old audiences alike, and by beating up on Bonanza, the Smothers Brothers were quite suddenly the heroes of CBS.  They could simply do no wrong.

At least not at first.  Before long, however, the Smothers Brothers began regularly to tangle with the network’s censors over the show’s content.  Though disappointed in the censors’ meddling (not to mention the outright violation by CBS of the Smothers Brothers’ contractual ‘creative control’), Tom and Dick still felt carefully optimistic about the kind of show they were putting out each week.  And determined to have a lively show, the brothers had booked controversial rock groups, such as the Buffalo Springfield and Simon and Garfunkel.  They had done parodies of editorials on such timely topics as firearms (“Many people today are suggesting that restrictions be put on...firearms...these people are...good, solid Americans.  They are either grossly misinformed...or else they are trouble-making Communists.  But we respect them.”) and the Ku Klux Klan (“Our sheets are whiter than white.”  “No, we are.”).  They had even added relevant political content to their largely apolitical routine:

Dick: We lost another airplane--crashed in Greenland--and we lost four hydrogen bombs in the Arctic Snow.  That’s disturbing to me. Very.  Seriously.

Tom: Not to me.

Dick: What do you mean?

Tom: Well, I think that just simply reflects another change in the hydrogen bomb policy.  I mean, we’re losing them in the snow in Greenland now instead of in the waters of Spain like we used to...I feel like it’s a step in the right direction in order to spread democracy.

Dick: Spread democracy?...Don’t you realize that losing hydrogen bombs disturbs all the ...nuclear powers who control world politics?

Tom:  Maybe they need to be disturbed.

Dick: Here are the powers that control world politics, that have the bomb, right?  The U.S., right?  Russia, Red China, England, and France.

Tom: Yeah, but now they’ve added two fishermen in Spain and three Eskimos in Greenland.

Tom and Dick Smothers, The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, 1968.[ii]


The network began to flinch at content which touched on topics such as the Civil Rights Movement and the war in Vietnam.  For instance, the brothers had booked Pete Seeger, who had been blacklisted from television for refusing to answer House Un-American Activities Committee questions seventeen years earlier, to appear on the second season opener of The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour.  Seeger’s appearance on the show was a major event that CBS allowed because the show had such strong ratings.  The honeymoon ended when the CBS censors cut Seeger’s ballad ‘Waist Deep in the Big Muddy’ before broadcast.  The song, ostensibly about World War II, ended with lines that many (rightly) interpreted as being critical of President Johnson and the war in Vietnam. ‘Now every time I read the papers / That old feelin’ comes on / We’re waist deep in the Big Muddy / And the big fool says to push on.’ [iii]  The Smothers Brothers were outraged that Seeger had been censored, and they said so quite publicly.  Eventually, the network relented, and Seeger was allowed to sing the song again.

The Seeger situation was far from the only political controversy that the show would generate that season.  One of the writers for the show, Pat Paulsen, launched a fictional bid for the presidency from the show, appearing each week to lampoon the actual candidates.  Paulsen, in his deadpan style made such bold declarations as, ‘There is nothing in the Constitution about Freedom to Hear...Of course, that takes a lot of the fun out of Freedom of Speech.’[iv]  The Smothers Brothers themselves targeted Johnson regularly.  ‘Dick: What can the President do to keep people from leaving the United States [for vacations].  Tom: He could quit.’[v]  African-American ventriloquist Aaron Williams appeared with a Caucasian dummy (named Whitey).  The two exchanged these words: ‘You know, Aaron, some of my best friends are Negro ventriloquists.’  ‘Well, that’s ok because some of my best friends are white dummies.’[vi]  Increasingly, they spoke out for free speech and the right to protest on the air.

The more the network cut, the harder the brothers fought to keep the show culturally relevant.  In their third (and final) season’s opening show, they defiantly sang a duet that featured the following lyrics:  ‘The weekly grind is stretching out before us/The bleeping censors lurking in the wings/CBS would like to give us notice/And some of you don’t like the things we say/But we’re still here/We’re still here/You may not think we’re funny/But we’re here.’[vii]  Unfortunately, they would not be around for much longer.  Not that they were alone in their struggle.  In fact, they got a little help from their friends The Beatles.  For two consecutive weeks (October 6 and 13), the Fab Four supplied Tom and Dick with filmed live performances of their songs “Hey Jude” and “Revolution,”  a privilege no other American television program was granted.  A few weeks later, George Harrison actually appeared on the show and said by way of encouragement, ‘Whether you say it or not, keep trying to say it.’[viii]  The Smothers Brothers would follow that advice for the rest of the season, until CBS unceremoniously fired them, in gross violation of their contract.

The fallout from the firing elevated the brothers to poster boys for free speech, but while they eventually had their day in court (and won), their television careers were more or less over.  They did return in 1988 for a successful set of shows on CBS, but those specials—while very funny—were not as edgy or politically charged as the original series had been.  Their influence has been widely felt, though.  They paved the way for shows like Laugh-In, Saturday Night Live, and even laid the groundwork for MTV, with their innovative airing of music videos.  Bill Maher cites the pair as a big influence, as does Dennis Miller.  It’s not an exaggeration to say that The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour made possible the very best comedies and satires of the last thirty years.  And, in its time, though it has only recently received the attention it has deserved, ‘it was as important as TV could get.’[ix]  And modern television viewers are better off for its having existed.


I was privileged to be able to speak with Tommy Smothers a few weeks ago, to ask him about the genesis of The Smothers Brothers’ act, the controversy surrounding the show, and the current states of politics, free speech, and satire. 

Being There: I grew up on your records.   My parents were devoted fans, and my brother and I used to listen to all your LPs, Aesop’s Fables, Tour de Farce… all of them.  I can probably quote about half of them.  It’s a real honor to get to talk to you today.

Tommy Smothers: Well, thank you.  How old are you?

BT: I’m 32.

TS:  You’d have had to have been coerced by your parents.  We occasionally get kids in our audience that are like…once there was a ten year old, a twelve year old, and a fifteen year old that came from Arkansas.  And the ten year old, his face was just lit up.  So the parents had presented these albums to them for them to listen to, which was kind of neat.

BT:  I think those albums hold up.  I still think they’re very funny.  And I’m returning the favor.  I’ve got two boys of my own, and they’ve been listening to you, too.

TS:  How old are they?

BT: I’ve got a six year old and a three year old.  The three year old doesn’t get the jokes, but the six year old is starting to.

TS:  You know, I’ve got a nine year old and a twelve year old, and I’m an old dude…it’s just more fun with these kids.

BT: Congratulations to you and your brother for winning that TV Land Award for “Favorite Singing Siblings.”

TS:  [Laughs] I think they give the awards to whoever shows up.

BT:  How did that come about?  What other famous singing siblings did you beat?

TS: Uh, the um, the Mormon kids?

BT: The Osmonds?

TS: Yeah, Donnie and Marie, and…I forget the other ones [laughs].  But we were there, and it was so amazing because…I was sort of reluctant to go.  It was some of our time off and stuff.  But I talked to a friend and he said, “God, these awards are the most fun awards of all the awards next to the Golden Globes”…And the people that showed up were amazing.  I mean, I’m seeing people I hadn’t seen forever, my contemporaries.  One guy was a hundred years old, did you see that?

BT:  I did.

TS: And he said [in old man voice], “I’m still available.”  But that was so great seeing those old faces, getting to be with them.

BT: Yeah.


TS: I don’t think it was a big competition.  We’re out there, and we’re still working together, so…

BT: How long have you guys been working together?

TS: We’re going on our forty-seventh year now.

BT: Forty-seven years; that’s amazing.  Did you and your brother always want to perform?  Was that something you knew you were going to do?

TS: Well, Dick didn’t.  Dick wanted to be a school teacher or a mechanic or something.  I always had a kind of indication, from the time of about ten that I wanted to be a band leader.  And when I was 15 I saw George Goebel, and I said, “Well, I’d like to do what he does.” Which is stand up and talk.  When we started singing in high school, in quartets, Dickie was the best singer.  And when folk singing came around, we thought, “Oh, man, those are really good songs.”  And you could make up stuff, and I started talking, making up stuff about them, and finally Dickie would say, “That’s wrong.”  And pretty soon, “That’s wrong, and that’s stupid.”  I kept encouraging him to the point now where it’s evolved…developed into a comedy team, in the classical sense of the word.

BT:  So you didn’t start out planning to do a comedy act?  It just kind of happened?

TS: It just evolved along the way.  It turned out that I was a…I wanted to be a musician; it turned out I wasn’t quite good enough to do that.  So, I realized I was kind of funny.  So, maybe I’ll go with that and keep the music in.  It just kind of evolved into this musical, comedy, classic type of a…smart one and a dumb one, you know… [Laughs]

BT: [Laughing] Well, that’s the bit you’re best known for.  Who wrote most of your banter?

TS: That was mostly improvisational between Dick and I.  Primarily I’d just make up stuff, and he’d contradict it.  So it was very improvisational.  Some of the stuff, I said, “Where’d that come from?”  The process was pretty mystical, when I look back on it. 

So anyway, I’d just keep talking, making up stuff. And Dickie got really good at it, to the point when…I really like it when people start to turn on him.  And I’d say, “Well, now you’re really doing a good job.”  But he ranks up there with, I think, with Oliver Hardy and Dean Martin—

BT: Absolutely.  One of the great straight men—

TS: —a little Bud Abbot.  The straight man was always the cornerstone of a comedy team, and all successful comedy teams had a straight man that was exceptional.

BT: Do you think the straight man has a harder job?

TS: Well, in original Vaudeville, he was paid the most money.

BT: I didn’t know that.

TS: It was called the skilled position because a good straight man could bring people out of the audience, you know, and get them on stage and get laughs out of them—because he would set it up right.  The straight man is like the drummer, the bass player.  He’s the thing that keeps the rhythm.  And if the audience believes the straight man—if they believe him—they’ll believe whatever the comic does.

BT: Sure.

TS: So, I could see Lou Costello without Bud Abbott, and it wouldn’t be very effective [laughs].

BT: That’s true.  Those routines need both parts. 

You guys have been recording artists, you’ve had the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, TV specials, you’ve performed all over the world, and as you said, you’re entering your 47^th year.  What part of your career do you look back on with the most fondness?

TS:  Well, of course there’s the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, and then in ‘88-‘89, there was a series of shows we did for CBS, nineteen specials that I was particularly proud of.

BT: I got to see those when they aired.

TS: I thought that was some of our best work.  And when I look at some of the old shows, the original shows that got most of the attention because of the climate they were produced in, which was the Vietnam War…but when I look at both of them side by side, it’s the ‘88-‘89 ones that I thought were the best.  The best of the Smothers Brothers’ performances, anyway.  Uh…I was a little too focused on producing and being part of the creative process and didn’t spend enough time on the Tom and Dick spots in the first show, in the original Comedy Hour.  But we reversed that in the next show.  We didn’t use cue cards; we had to learn our lines, so there was an edge of improvisational stuff that happened.  I look at those pieces of work and I say, “Hey, that’s our best stuff.”

BT:  Are there any plans to release any of those shows on DVD?  I mean, it seems like the time is ripe; the classic shows of that era are coming out in droves.

TS: There’s talk about that right now.  We’re in negotiations to release packages of four or five of the originals.  But, gosh, I cringe at them because… [Laughs]…They hold up at the time they were shown, but look back on them, and…it would require some editing.  But that project is in the works right.

BT:  That’s good to know.  Would you agree—and I’m not just bootlicking here—but, I have seen a couple of episodes of the original show.  I think they aired at one point—

TS: —on E!

BT: Right, on E!  And somebody made a tape of a couple of them for me.  It’s the one where you guys aired the video for [The Beatles’] “Hey Jude” for the first time in the US, and another one where George Harrison actually made an appearance…which…[gushing like Chris Farley] that must have been awesome.

TS: Oh, it was great.

BT: But would you agree that the Comedy Hour basically paved the way for shows like Saturday Night Live and even, to a certain degree, MTV?  I mean, you guys broke a lot of ground with the variety format, with videos and—

TS: Well, that…that’s the consensus…um…that we did open some doors there.  Saturday Night Live particularly, I think we had an influence on that. Yes.

BT: Do you think a show like yours could get made today?

TS: Well, there’s no…there seems to be no interest in variety shows ‘cause we have clickers and channel changers, which is our variety now.  I mean, you can go to anything you want.  I think it would be a great idea.  I loved the old Sullivan shows, and I love performing artists.  I love the jugglers and the tumblers, the plate spinners, and stuff like that.  I like that stuff.

BT: Yeah.

TS: I think there’s probably more great live performers now than there’s ever been before, and there’s no place for them.  So, I think it would work. [Pauses] I don’t think the political stuff or social commentary would be very effective in this world today.

BT: Why do you think that is?

TS: It’s much more repressive.  They don’t even…I mean, in the Sixties…we were fired in 1969 for our anti-war viewpoints in Vietnam.  But, there was a different mood in the country then.  Even though it was divided, at least the press was free.  And…that’s not the case anymore.

BT: Do you think there’s a lot of pressure to keep dissent quiet in the press today?

TS: Oh, yeah.  I mean the press doesn’t even carry the right stories.  Are we really that obsessed with Scott Peterson, Michael Jackson—

BT: I know, I know.

TS: —the Runaway Bride?  I mean Larry King is interviewing old-time actors and stuff.  Where’s our discussion about what’s going on in the world?

BT:  Did you see—it was right around the time of the election—Jon Stewart of The Daily Show went on [CNN’s] Crossfire?

TS: I saw that.  I saw it live [laughs].

BT: That was one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen, where he just called them on what they’re doing.  That there’s no debate on these “debate shows,” that it’s just a shouting match.

TS: The only time you hear debate is on NPR or something like that, and um…the country’s so…I’ve never seen anything like this.  It’s so repressive, I haven’t even heard the Dixie Chicks played since that…and they go out there, and they absolutely will tell their stations, “Don’t play ‘em.  We don’t approve of them.  They put down Bush, so we don’t play them anymore.”  Where’s free speech there?

BT: Actually, I had a question about that for later, but I’ll just bring it up now.  The Dixie Chicks were more or less blacklisted from—

TS: Absolutely.

BT: —their career was ended because they made a critical comment about policies about the war.  I hate to sound paranoid, but do you feel sometimes like the climate is such that we’re almost entering a New McCarthyism?

TS: Absolutely.  I feel that we’re…this country’s starting to…people are actually starting to censor themselves.

BT: There’s a freezing effect.

TS: Yup.  Big freeze on expressing, and I think the real discussion takes place between two or three people that are good friends.  But I don’t hear it in the bars; you’re not going to hear it on television.  Even the newscasters are softer…even Chris Matthews is not as aggressive as he should be…my God.  It’s a terrible thing that’s happening now.  And it’s freedom of hearing, what we’re doing.  You know, censorship is the government will make no rules.  And it has to be pretty direct.  But the corporations that own the country—they can do it, and they know what they’re doing.  It supports their positions.  Very totalitarian right now.

BT: Well, if you look at the radio stations; they’re pretty much all owned by either Clear Channel or Infinity.  There’s a tiny number of people who own the television airwaves.  It just seems like if anything conflicts with corporate interests, it doesn’t make it on the air.

TS:  I know.  I know [laughs].  Sometimes I feel like, “God, I’m supposed to be quiet, and just…Ok, it’s out of our hands now.  Just be a good German.”  [Laughs] You know. “Be quiet, line up, and take your shoes off and your belt as you go through the thing, and show your identification card.”  God Almighty, and then I’m going through and they say, “Could you take your belt off?  By the way, we love your show.  Turn around now and…”

BT: [Laughs]

TS: I said, “Are you looking for goddamn terrorists, or are you just screwing around with people?”  You know.  It’s getting pretty bad.

BT:  It just seems there’s more need than ever to really examine what we’re doing and question our security policies, but no one’s doing it.

TS: Well, the news media, if they won’t talk about it….I mean, a democracy has to be informed, or it’s not a democracy.  So we’re not an informed people at all.  I don’t know what to do.  I thought in the Sixties that we’d taken care of that.  But it’s worse than ever.

BT:  You guys were equal opportunity satirists.  I mean, you took on Johnson, and then you took on Nixon.

TS: You know it’s not the hat you wear; it’s not the team you’re on.  Nowadays it’s like being on a ball team.  I was out playing golf with some guy not too long ago, and I was saying, “God this deficit, and the economic situation is just ridiculous.”  He said, “Hey, be careful.  I’m a Republican.”  What the hell does that have to do with it?

BT: “And?”

TS: I mean the Republicans should criticize their own people just like Democrats or anyone else would.  Both parties are so corrupt now, that it’s just hard to…

BT: Do you think there’s any real difference between them anymore?

TS: No.  I’m with Perot, man.  Republicrats.  [Doing a pitch-perfect Perot impression] “All those shiny-shoe lobbyists running around Washington…” And here they are, running around.  We should play some of [Perot’s] stuff again, and see how [right] he was.  He really perceived…and then of course he was ridiculed.  And any time someone…they did it to McCain.  He’s kind of turned around, and I don’t know anymore what he’s about.

BT: I keep thinking we need someone like Pat Paulsen to run a good satiric presidential campaign.

TS: Wouldn’t that…If he were alive, we’d have so much fun. [Laughs]

BT: Was that all his idea, or did you collaborate on that campaign?

TS: Oh no.  Pat was just a great piece of work.  Anytime we had trouble with a sketch, we’d put Pat in it.  We had a whole bunch of people—Mason Williams and Ken Craig wrote for him.  And when he wasn’t on the show, and between the times….when we didn’t have a show, he just kind of wandered away.  But then we’d get a show and put him on and, bam! He’s hot again.  But he was one of those great guys, who was just wonderfully deadpan.  He was a great liar.  [Laughs]

BT: Well, just his delivery when he announced “If nominated I will not accept, and if elected I will not serve.” [Laughs]

TS: [Laughs] He was wonderful.  That was one of the great satires of modern times.  We don’t have that much anymore.

BT:  What do you think of the state of satire these days?  Is there any equivalent of someone like Mort Sahl or Lenny Bruce?

TS:  Well, yeah, we have Bill Maher, and we have Jon Stewart.  We have some people out there.  But we’re not going to hear most of it.

BT: No.

TS: And there’s a whole bunch of guys in San Francisco, but very seldom do they get any time on the microphone, or…’cause…I mean, Christ, from that little piece that we did from that award show on TV Land?

BT: Yes?

TS: Yeah, we got some just scathing letters from people.

BT: Really?

TS: Yeah because they said, “How can you attack national policies?  You’re attacking Bush!  You…crumb bums…”  We had one…

BT: So people are…

TS: We got a letter one time from a…and email that said, “You Saddam dick-sucking motherfucker!”  That’s the level of…

BT: That’s amazing!

TS: Isn’t that something?  It’s satire.

BT: Wow.  You guys came through Fort Worth a couple of years ago, to the Bass Hall.  Actually, it was around my birthday, and my parents took me.  It was a lot of fun to see you altogether.  And you had some political content, but honestly…it seemed pretty…

TS: —mild.

BT: …mild.  Exactly.

TS: It is pretty mild.  But people are so…so partisan now.  My team or your team.  I don’t care what my team does, they’re right.  Whatever your team does is wrong.

BT: It just surprises me that you’d get strong negative reactions to those kinds of comments and jokes.

TS: Isn’t that amazing?

BT: The bit I remember is you telling a story about going up in a plane and flying around Fort Worth and Dickie finally interrupted and said something like, “That’s just a lie.  Why would you lie like that?”  And you said something like, “National Security.”

TS: Yeah.

BT: It was funny, but it wasn’t…you know.  I mean, it was slightly critical.

TS: [Laughs] There’s another bit where we do something, and I wreck something.  And he says, “How can you stand there….what gives you the right to stand there and do something so stupid and then deny it?”  And I said, “I’m an American.”

BT: [Laughs] And do people actually react negatively to that?

TS: Some of them do, but most of them laugh before they even get it.  I think both sides recognize a level of corruption that is beyond the pale.  So they do recognize that that’s funny.  And it’s really good satire because it allows both sides to join in.  But the ones that are so uptight about it will take it as a personal affront to them and everything they stand for [chuckles].

BT: When the Comedy Hour was airing from ‘67 to ‘69, you guys took on the CBS censors almost weekly.  And you became the most public figures in a free speech battle, mainly for supporting Civil Rights and opposing the Vietnam War (which, of course, most people would agree with today).  You guys got canceled because of your—

TS: No, we were fired.

BT: I’m sorry.  You were fired.

TS: We don’t like the word “canceled.”  Being canceled is a legitimate way of, if you don’t pick up an option or something, you’re cancelled.  They pay you off and you’re gone. 

BT: Right.  You guys were fired.

TS: We were fired.  That’s a big difference.

BT: That’s true, and thanks for correcting me.  In the fallout from your firing, you guys ultimately prevailed in court, is that correct?

TS: Yeah.

BT: Does that make up for it?  Do you still get angry about it?

TS: Oh, you know, I’m not angry anymore.  But, it was not fair.  I still have a…intellectually I perceive it.  But there was a couple of years there where I lost, uh…lost my sense of humor.

BT: Did you just not think anything was funny?

TS: Yeah, nothing was funny, and everything was deadly serious, and…and it took about two years, and all of a sudden, boom, I said, “Hey, wait a second.   There’s a joke here.” [Laughs]

BT: Sure.

TS: So I look back on it, and there’s a lot of residual respect we got from that position.  A lot of people, especially baby boomers that were growing up at the time.  And so we get…there’s a lot of good things that came from that.  But at the time, it was quite devastating.  We played by the rules, and then we just said, “Aw, man!”

BT: Were you even trying to be edgy and controversial?  Or were you just reflecting the attitude of the times?

TS: It was partly that, but when we started the show, we wanted it to be relevant. And in the first year, there was nothing happening, but then the war cranked up, and voter registration, and we just started reflecting what we’d seen out there, as basically a whole young…I mean everybody on our staff was basically about 70% were under 30.  Everybody was in their 20s; I was 30 or 31.  And so we were reflecting what was going on, and I didn’t know I had said anything important until they said, “You better not say that.”

BT: Do you think you were changing peoples’ opinions, or were you just giving voice to something that TV hadn’t really given voice to?  Were you reflecting a sentiment that existed already?

TS: Both of those.  We were reflecting a sentiment that we thought was not being presented.  And things were getting pretty passionate.  And I was hoping to change minds.

BT: Yeah.

TS: And both of the things…You put it in art, and it reflects a good place.  War is not good; that was a bad war.  Voter registration, equal rights, that’s all good.  You know, so, uh, try to keep producing good thoughts for people.  That was the idea.  And make it entertaining.

BT: After a scuffle with censors Pete Seeger was finally able to perform “Waist Deep in the Big Muddy” on the show.  Do you ever look back at any of those episodes, especially songs like that, and feel like things are eerily appropriate all over again?

TS: Well, you know, in our show…and I don’t know if we’ll be able to do it with the symphony, but most of these dates, we carry around about a 12 minute video, and we have a big screen up there that’s part of the deal.  And one of the sections is a little piece of Pete Seeger singing “Waist Deep in the Big Muddy” with a bunch of bombs falling and stuff.  And, it feels exactly like today.  And it just…People hear it, and they make that connection without even thinking.  Because that’s exactly what’s happening.

BT: Who do you think is out there—you mentioned Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, maybe people like Al Franken, who don’t have TV shows, but who…

TS: Those are my heroes.

BT: Yeah?

TS: And Michael Moore, what a great guy.  And he’s been vilified, and I don’t see anyone standing up for him.

BT: Were you a fan of Fahrenheit 9/11?

TS: Oh, I thought it was a great film.  Didn’t you?

BT: I thought it was incredibly entertaining and—

TS: —and revealing.  And all these thing that were coming out—

BT: —and there were some things that were quite shocking to see.

TS: Oh yeah.

BT: I think Moore has a knack for presentation.  The way he lays out a narrative is his strongest suit, I think.

TS: I think his strongest suit is his fearlessness.  Absolutely.  I saw The Awful Truth and some of those other TV shows he did—oh man!

BT: I loved TV Nation.  I miss that show.

TS: What incredible courage.  And to be a dissenter.  To dissent against popular opinion or set views takes some chutzpah.  It takes an edge, and you’ve got to take some slings and arrows.  But he’s absolutely fearless.  So is Bill Maher.  There’s a bunch of guys that we never get to hear.  And I’m a big fan of Ralph Nader.  He’s the only guy standing up for the person, the people, instead of the corporations.  God, all we have to do to fix this oil thing is for Congress to say, “Hey! Car manufacturers!  Fifty miles per gallon in five years.”  [In whiny voice of oil executive] “Oh, but we can’t…that’s gonna…”  Well, geez, that’s too bad.  Somebody will do it, and if you don’t want to compete in that arena, I guess you’re going to go out of business.  Too bad.

BT: [Laughs] Exactly.

TS: That’s the deal.  70% of our consumption comes from automobiles and transportation.  But nothing’s being done as we watch Rome burn.

BT: Even the battle over free speech has changed.

TS: There’s no such thing.

BT: Today it seems like the poster boy for free speech is somebody like Howard Stern, who seems to be fighting for the right to curse on the air.

TS: Isn’t that something?

BT: Such a difference between that and what you guys were fighting for.

TS: For Howard Stern to be the poster boy for First Amendment is just ridiculous.  That’s how low the…People used to say, three or four years ago before the Janet Jackson thing, they’d say, “Don’t you wish you were on television now?  You could say anything you want.”  So there’s an illusion that because bad language and sex and stuff is rampant that [you have free speech].  But there’s nothing being said, except, you know, narcissistic reflections on a crotch.

BT: Right.

TS: And all the political satirists that have television shows are relegated to cable or are on at 11:30 or whatever.

BT: It seems The Daily Show is the best satire on TV, and it’s on Comedy Central after a show about puppets.

TS: I know.  I know.  That was so great, though, when [Jon Stewart] did that [on Crossfire].  I couldn’t believe it.

BT: I was so proud of him. 

TS: I was too.  So, the condition of the nation is in terrible shape, and everybody’s lined up on sides.  It’s just…

BT: Given the corruption of both parties, do you think Kerry would have been better?  Would it have made a difference?

TS: I don’t…it would have made a difference, but…I mean, the Democratic Party is so corrupt, too.  All these people are sitting around pretending that they’re different, arguing over trivia.

BT: Two sides of the same coin.

TS: Yup, they are.  But there’s just a little more humanity in the Democratic side than the Republican [laughs].  That’s about the only redeeming thing.  That’s about it.

BT:  Do you think your show would have even been controversial if it had aired after Watergate?  Did you feel vindicated by the fact that Nixon had to resign?

TS: Oh yeah.  I was vindicated because Nixon left office the same way we did; he was kind of kicked out.  It came full circle.  When he was elected, our option was picked up for a fourth year, and two months after his election we were fired.  So those all connect.  You can’t actually draw a line to it, but there it was.

BT: Oh, sure.

TS: But we’re still out there.

BT: How many shows a year do you guys do now?

TS: We do about 90 to 100.  About 6 months a year out there on the road.  We have good crowds; we’re always selling out.  It’s going great. We’re having a good time.

BT: On your web site, there are a couple of your classic LPs that are available on CD: Curb Your Tongue, Knave and Aesop’s Fables—

TS: I never liked that one.

BT: No?

TS: I didn’t get it.  I mean, I know what it’s about and everything, but I didn’t think our performances were very good.  I like the music.

BT: It’s one of the few records you made that weren’t recorded in front of an audience.  It was done in the studio.

TS: Yeah.  And it was mostly written.  We always have a little bit of trouble with people writing what they think we would say.

BT: Sure.  But those songs are great.  I mean they really stuck with me growing up.  It might be the least typical of your comedy, but even those really stick.

TS: That’s great.

BT: Do you guys have any plans to do TV again?  Has that presented itself?  Would you do it if you could?

TS: Oh yeah.  We met about two years ago.  We made a big effort and went down to Hollywood and did some showcases.  We had all the networks, everybody was there.  It was very close.  CBS and HBO and ABC, they were all there, and all the good people, and we killed.  But we’re just past the point.  You know.  Our demographic age is too old.  It’s ageism.  Ageists.  We’re a little too old to get it unless something magical happens.  We’re on the other side of it, kind of near the end of our career. Having a good time.  It would be nice to have another show.  I’d love to present variety and, uh, make a few comments along the way.  But I don’t think it’s going to happen.

BT: So what do you think is the best hope for comedy and satire?  What’s going to have to happen to get something genuine?

TS: What I’m so concerned about is that these great satirists…that if it’s contrary to the government position at the time…are not going to be heard because the control of the media is so strong.  I don’t think, like in the Sixties, there were still three networks, and they were highly competitive.  And they were really questioning policies, with some real discussion going on.  It’s not happening now.  So, even for entertainers it’s a little more controlled.  You can see how the…demise of…Saturday Night Live is getting so terrible.

BT: Well, they’ve got their opening bit, which sometimes has some decent political content.  Maybe Weekend Update will have a political joke or two.  But then it just dissolves into—

TS: —pettiness. 

BT: Yeah.

TS: [Laughs] No edgy stuff.  I think the condition of comedy in America, since it is still a free country (it’s just freedom of hearing is a big problem).  I think there’s going to be some great comics coming up.  Some great satirical and social commentary people.  Jackie Mason’s still a great one.  But there will be people out there; I don’t know whether we’ll get to hear them or if we’ll have to search them out on the Internet.  That’s a whole new world.

BT:  It sure is.  I mean you have to be careful because some stuff that passes itself off as news online is just made up garbage, but it seems that’s the only place where you have almost complete freedom to publish and say what you want.  A lot of times it’s the bloggers out there holding the politicians’ feet to the flames instead of the press. 

TS: They sure are.  And that’s probably going to be the level of it.  It’s going to be found in more esoteric and isolated places.  But you know…Why is it always the poorest and the least are the ones that wave the flag the most for the people that are screwing them?

BT: They don’t know that they’re being screwed.

TS: That’s been so throughout history, you know?  It’s not just our country, but all countries.  People just line up, and nationalism gets the big deal, and they start waving flags, and, uh…don’t seem to want to be informed.

Well…this is depressing.

BT: Sorry.  I didn’t mean to bring you down.

TS: No, we’re talking about stuff.  Comedy is fine.  Our comedy…we like to think of ourselves as having a lot of air and space.  And timing is all important because…no one steals what we do because it’s all based on attitude and relationships more than it is on jokes.

BT: Do you still get a huge thrill in front of a crowd?

TS: I love it.  It’s one of the best times of the day when I’m on stage.  And the worst time is getting there and going through this, uh, totalitarian fascist state of lining up and people not even…God, I get so offended when I see them bringing grandmothers over there and old people, little kids.  I think, “What are you looking for?  Keep your eyes open.”  But there’s got to be a joke there, too.

BT: Well, you have to laugh, or you’ll lose your mind sometimes.

TS: Yeah.  But we’re doing well.

BT: What’s up next for you guys?

TS: Some more dates.  I have a show coming up, going to be on ABC.  Disney film, Once upon a Mattress with Tracy Ulman and Carol Burnett.

BT: That sounds fun.

TS: And Dick and I do individual things occasionally.  But most of the time, we’re working together.  People will come up to me and ask, “Are you still working with your brother?”  Of course, I’m working with my brother.

BT:  So, I have to ask because I might not ever get the chance again.

TS: What’s that?

BT: Will you say “Mom always liked you best!” for me?

TS: [Instantly in character] “Oh yeah, well…Mom always liked you best!” [As Dickie] “Lower your voice!” [In a low, deep voice] “Mom always liked you best…”

BT: [Laughing and hoping the tape recorder works]

TS: That just happened one night in St; Louis doing an album.

BT:  Really, it just happened?

TS: Came out and Dickie was really on a roll.  He had about five…he was chastising me: “You’re stupid.  You’ve never been right in your life.  You’re incompetent.”  He kept going and going.  He did about seven of them, and the audience was just about turning on him.  And he got finished up, and I looked at him and said, “Yeah, well, Mom always liked you best!”  Just one more nail in the coffin.  And it became our little, uh, probably the most quoted thing we’ve ever done.

BT: So if 50 years from now, people are writing the history of twentieth-century pop culture, and that phrase is all people remember you for, will that be enough?

TS: I don’t care if people remember me or not.  [Laughs]  All we were is a pretty good comedy team that had a nice run, had a moment in the sun there on a larger basis than just being performers, and that’s pretty much it.  It’s was fun to entertain people.  It’s fun to make people laugh.  But there’s certainly nothing profound about the Smothers Brothers.  It was just another act.

BT: Speaking personally, you guys are one of my favorites.  In terms of the comedy and the consciousness, you’re heroes of mine.  It’s been a real privilege to talk to you today. 

TS: Well, thank you.  It was good talking to you.

BT:  And good talking to you.  I appreciate your time so much.  And like George Harrison said on your show when he appeared, whether they let you say it or not, it’s just important that you keep trying to say it.

TS: Right.  We’re going to continue.  I’m going to try to figure out the right tone.  Great satire is one that will get both sides.

BT: Absolutely.

TS: And it’s a hard balance to find, but we’re working on it.

[i]"Chocolate,@ by Pat Paulsen, from The Two Sides of the Smothers Brothers LP.

[ii]The Museum of Television and Radio, Stand-Up Comedians on Television, pg. 104.

[iii]Gent, ASeeger will sing >Big Muddy= on TV,@ The New York Times (February 15, 1968): 87.

[iv]David Bianculli, Dictionary of Teleliteracy, 303.

[v]Excerpt from APresident Johnson,@ from the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour LP.

[vi]From a video of the October 6, 1968 episode of The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour.

[vii]Aniko Bodroghkozy, AThe Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour and the Youth Rebellion,@ an essay published in The Revolution Wasn=t Televised, 209.

[viii]David Bianculli, The Dictionary of Teleliteracy, 303.

[ix]David Bianculli, The Dictionary of Teleliteracy, 303.